1 2 3

Thursday, December 31, 2009

[Type-2-Diabetes] Digest Number 3848

Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)

1a.
Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin? From: Diane Moro
1b.
Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin? From: Diane Moro
1c.
Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin? From: Holly Shaltz
1d.
rant about BG swings From: Holly Shaltz
1e.
Re: rant about BG swings From: AnaLog Services, Inc.
1f.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Holly Shaltz
1g.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Amal
1h.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Dorothy Wurth
1i.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Holly Shaltz
1j.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Holly Shaltz
1k.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Deb Billwiller
1l.
Re: rant about BG swings From: Jude
2a.
Re: foot drop From: Diane Moro
2b.
blood glucose and surgery From: Kim
2c.
Re: blood glucose and surgery From: Amal
2d.
Re: foot drop From: Terry Shimmins
2e.
Re: blood glucose and surgery From: Jude
3a.
Re: The "myth" of dangerous tight control From: AnaLog Services, Inc.
4a.
Re: Can low blood sugar cause a person to have a seizure/black out? From: AnaLog Services, Inc.
4b.
Re: Can low blood sugar cause a person to have a seizure/black out? From: Holly Shaltz
5.
On diabetic plants in India. From: Sasirababu Krottapalli
6a.
Statin Drugs From: Barb T
6b.
Re: Statin Drugs From: Amal
7a.
Re: Glipizide, Statins and Congestive Heart Failure From: ron42nm
8a.
Re: seeing an endo From: Debbie Drechsler

Messages

1a.

Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin?

Posted by: "Diane Moro" deemoro@gmail.com   signoradiana

Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:56 am (PST)



Hi Barb!
I used to worry a lot about that morning number, but I finally realized that
the best way to get a lower reading in the AM is to eat less at dinner
(portion control) and NO grain carbs. If I have any grain carbs in the day,
I make sure they are in the AM or lunch, nothing with dinner. Then my
readings stay below 105, I have even seen numbers below 100. I like starting
my day with those numbers.
Having said that, these holildays have been a killer. Everywhere there are
homemade cookies. So many parties, special dinners, lunches, etc. Boy, why
the heck must we always celebrate with food...yikes.
So I've been off some. I never make resolutions, but I gotta get back on
track.
I take no meds yet, so I have to really have to watch my carbs.
btw oatmeal, no matter how I make it, always gives me a spike, so I've had
to ditch it.
Like you said, challenging.
~diane

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 4:48 PM, barbhealth2008 <barbhealth2008@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Hi All:
>
> I had a fantastic wake up glucose reading! 106
>
> I'm so glad about that, because many times I have the dawn phenomenon, and
> my numbers are up first thing in the morning, and that sure puts me in a bad
> mood because I have to figure out what to have for breakfast that has barely
> any carbs. The only thing there is just about is low-carb yogurt, or nuts.
> Oatmeal made just with water and nothing added can be okay sometimes
> because the fiber count off-sets the carbs and so it doesn't usually make my
> numbers go up. Then I have to drink a lot of water just to end up with
> normal numbers (if I'm lucky) 2 hrs. after I eat.
>
> This is a really challenging disease.
>
>
1b.

Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin?

Posted by: "Diane Moro" deemoro@gmail.com   signoradiana

Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:57 am (PST)



Holly, I'm pretty sure that a rise of 20 30 points or so is perfectly
normal, I mean even non diabetics get a rise in the glucose after eating, as
long as we go back down under 120 after two hrs. My doc says that's good.
~diane

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Holly Shaltz <holly@shaltzfarm.com> wrote:

> Barb writes:
>
> <<For example, 2 hours after I had breakfast, my
> reading was 164. I was watching what I ate, and I
> took my Metformin -- so, I wasn't expecting that
> high of a reading.>>
>
> I have found that, while my fastings are usually
> fine (provided I didn't fall off the wagon the day
> before :), being generally 75-85, my breakfast
> shoots up my BG quite substantially - 20-30 points
> a lot of the time, with just 3 g of carbohydrate
> (1 ounce of breakfast sausage and 2 ounces of
> mozzarella cheese). I don't know why this is, and
> it's frustrating, but I can live with the
> breakfast I'm eating these days - I like to have a
> breakfast rut, and this one is both reasonably
> palatable and does hold me til lunch about 4 hours
> later, so I really can't complain.
>
>
1c.

Re: glucose reading ups and down Q. Insulin?

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:01 am (PST)



Diane writes:

<<Holly, I'm pretty sure that a rise of 20 30
points or so is perfectly
normal, I mean even non diabetics get a rise in
the glucose after eating, as
long as we go back down under 120 after two hrs.
My doc says that's good.>>

Well, I'll have to disagree with your doctor :)

From Dr Bernstein's book, _Diabetes Solution_,
pages 43-44 (in brackets I've added the non-US BG
numbers for those who use that system):

"The nondiabetic ordinarily maintains blood sugar
immaculately within a narrow range - usually
between 80 {4.4} and 100 {5.6} mg/dl, with most
people hovering near 85 mg/dl. There are times
when that range can briefly stretch up or down -
as high as 160 {8.9} mg/dl and as low as 65 {3.6}
- but generally, for the nondiabetic, such swings
are rare.

You will note that in some literature on diabetes,
"normal" may be defined as 60-120 {3.3-6.7}, or
even as high as 140 {7.8}. This "normal" is
entirely relative. No nondiabetic will have blood
sugar levels as high as 140 except after consuming
a lot of carbohydrate. "Normal" in this case has
more to do with what is considered
"cost-effective" for the average physician to
treat.... I have seen "nondiabetics" with
sustained blood sugars averaging 120 {6.7} develop
diabetic complications."

And then, about truly nondiabetic A1Cs, page 54:

"... a truly normal HgbA1C ranges from 4.2 percent
to 4.6 percent, which corresponds to blood sugars
of about 83-90 {4.6-5.0}. Mine is consistently
4.5 percent. A recent study of "nondiabetics"
showed a 28 percent increase in mortality for ever
1 percent increase in HgbA1C above 4.9 percent."

I note that Dr B was diagnosed T1 in 1946 at the
age of 12. He entered med school in 79, at the
age of 45 (previously he was an engineer), because
his discoveries about using early BG meters to
help control BG were largely ignored by the US
medical establishment. He is a board-certified
endocrinologist today, in private practice in New
York state.

And it really doesn't matter to me what's "normal"
for anyone else's body. What matters is how *MY*
body reacts to BG swings, and it ain't fun.

I originally wrote a rant about that for here, but
I've moved it to another post as I really truly
don't want you to feel like you were the cause of
it - you're not :)

Holly in MI

1d.

rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:56 am (PST)



Here's my rant. It helped me to let off some
steam. Maybe it will also explain where I'm
coming from better than all the well-reasoned
arguments in the world....

<rant on>

I'm TIRED of people telling me 30 points isn't a
BG swing or spike!!!!! What does anyone else know
about how it feels to ME? It's like going from
fine to dead drunk in the space of 5 minutes,
without any of the fun of getting there - not even
eating a couple fun carbs!!!! And it happens from
***3*** lousy grams of carbohydrate at breakfast!!!!

Does anyone *else* on this list have this happen?
In all the posting I've done on forums and
lists, no one has *ever* said yeah, that happens
to me, too, and it's the pits! No, I get told,
over and over, it's not a spike, it's not a swing,
you should be a T1 on insulin and then you will
know what a *real* swing is! <growling loudly>
Including my PA, which was NO help at all.

And so then I tried to communicate it to her and
others in terms of percentages - how's this for a
swing: going up 30% of my starting BG in 5
minutes? Is *that* enough to count? But noooo,
of course it isn't. How about this: if it hit
while I'm driving, I would be seriously impaired
and very likely unsafe to drive? No, that doesn't
count either.

Like everyone else living with diabetes, I
struggle to find the balance between controlling
the disease and its ravages, dealing with the
complications of decades of undiagnosed, untreated
disease, and what quality of life I might be able
to fish out of the mess. To me, tight control of
my BG is the *only* thing that makes my life
livable today. Without that tight control, my BG
whooshes up and down, making me feel woozy at
best, unable to think, to concentrate, to do
anything productive - IOW, making my life worse
than it was when I was obese and had an A1C of
11.1. And we do know that fluctuations can be as
much at fault for damage to the body as sustained
high numbers - maybe more.

We each and every one of us have to choose our BG
goals based on the information we learn, and
***what our bodies can deal with***. Just because
the ADA says up to 180 post prandial is fine
doesn't make it so for me or anyone else - we all
realize that, right? So what makes 140 better?
or 120? It might work for some - lucky you if it
does! It doesn't work for me.

<rant off>

Now for a second cup of tea, a deep breath, and in
30 minutes, some T'ai Chi to ease my bodily aches
and mental sufferings!

Holly in MI

1e.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "AnaLog Services, Inc." analog@logwell.com   sydlevine

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:07 am (PST)



My sig other likes to joke about me being like the princess and the pea. I can feel a grain of sand in a shoe despite diabetic neuropathy. If you can feel a 30 point excursion in BG, you got me beat, princess.

But seriously, does that book by Bernstein have cites? What is that study that claims the big percentage of complications with an average BG of 120?

Syd

----- Original Message -----
From: Holly Shaltz
To: Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:07 AM
Subject: [Type-2-Diabetes] rant about BG swings

Here's my rant. It helped me to let off some
steam. Maybe it will also explain where I'm
coming from better than all the well-reasoned
arguments in the world....

<rant on>

I'm TIRED of people telling me 30 points isn't a
BG swing or spike!!!!! What does anyone else know
about how it feels to ME? It's like going from
fine to dead drunk in the space of 5 minutes,
without any of the fun of getting there - not even
eating a couple fun carbs!!!! And it happens from
***3*** lousy grams of carbohydrate at breakfast!!!!

Does anyone *else* on this list have this happen?
In all the posting I've done on forums and
lists, no one has *ever* said yeah, that happens
to me, too, and it's the pits! No, I get told,
over and over, it's not a spike, it's not a swing,
you should be a T1 on insulin and then you will
know what a *real* swing is! <growling loudly>
Including my PA, which was NO help at all.

And so then I tried to communicate it to her and
others in terms of percentages - how's this for a
swing: going up 30% of my starting BG in 5
minutes? Is *that* enough to count? But noooo,
of course it isn't. How about this: if it hit
while I'm driving, I would be seriously impaired
and very likely unsafe to drive? No, that doesn't
count either.

Like everyone else living with diabetes, I
struggle to find the balance between controlling
the disease and its ravages, dealing with the
complications of decades of undiagnosed, untreated
disease, and what quality of life I might be able
to fish out of the mess. To me, tight control of
my BG is the *only* thing that makes my life
livable today. Without that tight control, my BG
whooshes up and down, making me feel woozy at
best, unable to think, to concentrate, to do
anything productive - IOW, making my life worse
than it was when I was obese and had an A1C of
11.1. And we do know that fluctuations can be as
much at fault for damage to the body as sustained
high numbers - maybe more.

We each and every one of us have to choose our BG
goals based on the information we learn, and
***what our bodies can deal with***. Just because
the ADA says up to 180 post prandial is fine
doesn't make it so for me or anyone else - we all
realize that, right? So what makes 140 better?
or 120? It might work for some - lucky you if it
does! It doesn't work for me.

<rant off>

Now for a second cup of tea, a deep breath, and in
30 minutes, some T'ai Chi to ease my bodily aches
and mental sufferings!

Holly in MI

1f.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:42 am (PST)



Syd writes:

<<If you can feel a 30 point excursion in BG, you
got me beat, princess.>>

Unfortunately, I can feel a *10* point change in
my BG, though not as severely. The more severe
the effect, the faster the change, not necessarily
the greater the change. At least, that's what I
conclude with my intermittent BG tests. Hard to
say what a continuous glucose monitor would show.

<<But seriously, does that book by Bernstein have
cites?>>

No, it doesn't, as it was written for the public
at large, not for physicians.

<< What is that study that claims the big
percentage of complications with an average BG of
120? >>

It wasn't a formal study, but his observation and
diagnosis of hundreds, maybe thousands, of
diabetics. His website does give over a hundred
articles he's written, and those have citations of
studies when his information is drawn from other
than personal and medical experience. Some of
those are written for the general public, some for
clinicians. See <http://www.diabetes-book.com/>
I personally found the article on commonly
misdiagnosed diabetic complications to be quite
enlightening regarding my hip pain, after having
it shrugged off for a year by my PA and being told
it was sciatica, or maybe bursitis, by an
orthopedic doctor. I'm still dealing with the
pain, but at least I now know what's causing it,
and have at least a little hope that control of my
BGs may improve it.

Holly in MI

1g.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Amal" amal_mba10@yahoo.com   amal_mba10

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:21 am (PST)





--- On Thu, 12/31/09, Holly Shaltz <holly@shaltzfarm.com> wroteI'm TIRED of people telling me 30 points isn't a

BG swing or spike!!!!! What does anyone else know

about how it feels to ME? It's like going from

fine to dead drunk in the space of 5 minutes,

without any of the fun of getting there - not even

eating a couple fun carbs!!!! And it happens from

***3*** lousy grams of carbohydrate at breakfast!!! !***********Holly, First welcome back to the group.  30 points may be a spike to you but perhaps not to others.  I am sure when people discuss this they are only saying what works for them or what they believe is OK based on discussions with their health care team.  Some diabetics can walk around with 250 or more and feel perfectly normal. Others not.   If my BG for instance goes over 140 now I feel dizzy, irritated and get a needle-like feeling in my feet.  Without testing I know that I have exceeded 140.    I do not low carb myself but watch portion size.  I am on Prandin 3 times daily.  I can only drink 100ml of full fat milk in the morning or a boiled egg and introduce other carbs after 2 or 3 hours.  With the 100ml of milk my BG goes up like 20 or 30 points sometimes 40.   I do not know if my first meal in the morning would give better numbers if I was on insulin or a 24 hour sulfa
drug.  Like you, my A1c is in the mid 4's.  I try to avoid the lows by eating small regular meals.  The lowest  I have seen on my meter is 50 and that was only during the first few months after diagnosis.  I seriously applaud your determination to go on a strict low carb diet.  I wish I can do that for a day only!!  Last year on a cruise I did indulge in carby food and ice creams occasionally.  This translated into higher BG readings of course but the point is I cannot watch my food intake all the time.  When I go to weddings and birthday parties the same thing happens.  Glad they don't happen so often! When I test after such a meal I cover my face with my hands and peek through to see the number with much hesitation and very slowly.   Your messages are very intelligent and informative and helps others reflect on their own diabetes management plan. At least they do to me.   This is one of the reasons why we are on this list anyway.  
 Take care and best wishes for 2010 and beyond!  Amal  

1h.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Dorothy Wurth" dottie.wurth@yahoo.com   dottie.wurth

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:36 am (PST)



Holly,
I really don't want to offend you, but I suggest that you read and think through your rant again.  It sounds like you have set goals for yourself that your body is telling you it doesn't want to accept.  I know you want to prove that Dr. Bernstein is correct and that you can do it.  But what is the return for setting your goal so low that it makes you feel miserable and afraid of driving?  I wouldn't suggest that you go up to 180 or 140 or even 120, but increase slightly to see if you can level off your bgs.  Of course, you're right that we don't understand what you are feeling with your swings.  But then I doubt that anyone here has tried to be as extreme as you. 

--- On Thu, 12/31/09, Holly Shaltz <holly@shaltzfarm.com> wrote:

 

1i.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:15 am (PST)



Amal writes:

<<30 points may be a spike to you but perhaps not
to others. >>

As I've repeated over and over again, I understand
that, and accept that. Most diabetics don't need
to control their BGs the way I do. I just wish
that *my* feelings and needs would be respected as
I respect those of others. I'm tired of having my
needs belittled as unimportant - not saying anyone
here has intentionally done that, but on forums
and talking to my medical "team", it has happened
numerous times.

<<With the 100ml of milk my BG goes up like 20 or
30 points sometimes 40. >>

According to the USDA nutrient database, that
would be around 5 g of carboyhdrate (it didn't
give 100 ml, so I figured it by rounding up the
carbs in 1 cup (240 ml) of milk, then dividing by
2.5). And milk is a fast-acting carb - that's why
it's often recommended for treating lows.

My BG goes up that much from eating 3 g of carb,
from sausage and cheese. This is not to criticize
what you do - your choice is right for your
situation, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it!
Nor to whine my body is worse off than yours :)
Just a statement of fact that my insulin response
is lower than that of most people.

<<I seriously applaud your determination to go on
a strict low carb diet. I wish I can do that for
a day only!!>>

That's *exactly* what I do, actually - one day
only, this day, even this hour sometimes. If I
crave something, I tell myself maybe I'll have it
this afternoon, or this evening, or tomorrow. Or
if it's something that will probably be off-limits
forever, then I tell myself maybe I'll have it
when I'm on insulin, or maybe someday I'll be
cured, and have it then. "Someday" is frequently
in my thoughts - I know it's a thought game, and
that's OK, because it gets me through those
moments and helps me stay on track.

<<This translated into higher BG readings of
course but the point is I cannot watch my food
intake all the time. >>

My interpretation would be that you *choose* to
not eat low-carb all the time - which is fine. I
*chose* to have a teaspoon of cranberry sauce, a
couple small cubes of cornbread dressing, and a
small chunk of apple, on Christmas day - in
addition to my protein and low-carb veggies, of
course :)

<<When I go to weddings and birthday parties the
same thing happens. >>

For *me* it's easy to avoid eating what I
"shouldn't" (rather, what I choose not to eat)
when I'm in public situations. I might yearn a
little, but I can resist pretty easily. What's
hard for me is when I get home again. I don't
know why, but that's my personal pattern. So,
when I know I'm going to be in a situation where
others are indulging freely, I plan ahead. I make
some low-carb sweet treat, and I have it waiting
for me when I get home. That really helps me a
lot. I wish I didn't have to do that, but it
works. Maybe, "someday", I won't need that crutch
anymore. Maybe :)

<<Your messages are very intelligent and
informative and helps others reflect on their own
diabetes management plan. >>

Thank you! I don't desire to "convert" anyone to
my WOE or WOL. I just want to stop the knee-jerk
negative reactions to BG control via low-carbing,
and I want people to be aware that there are
*many* ideas about appropriate BG goals, not just
what the ADA states is desirable. Each of us
needs to learn as much as possible - about our
bodies, about where we'd like to be - and then
make choices regarding our goals. And, if
necessary, revisit those goals and make new
choices over time.

It also helps me to write about my experience - it
reminds me of where I've been and where I am
today, which helps keep me truckin' - and it helps
me to hear others' experiences, for much the same
reasons.

Holly in MI

1j.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:39 am (PST)



Dorothy writes:

<<It sounds like you have set goals for yourself
that your body is telling you it doesn't want to
accept. I know you want to prove that Dr.
Bernstein is correct and that you can do it. But
what is the return for setting your goal so low
that it makes you feel miserable and afraid of
driving? >>

I'm not miserable, and I'm not afraid to drive. I
am learning to control the BG swings that made my
life hell last summer, by using glucose tablets to
stop minor BG drops that then led to glucose dumps
by my liver. At any rate, that's what I *think*
was going on - I never got any help from my PA or
anywhere else, except from Dr B's book, on
figuring out the cause and how to deal with it.
But it's working.

I've set these goals, and I'm achieving them. Not
100% of the time, which is OK, but for an
increasing number of days every week and month,
I'm achieving my BG management goals. My BGs, in
spite of the holidays, have been increasingly
close to my goals and increasingly stable.

Do I *wish* I could eat more carbs? Of course I
do! But maintaining stable BGs is far more
important to me than drinking milk, eating fruit,
or high-carb goodies.

I'm tired of labels such as "extreme". They
marginalize me and my needs - they push me off to
the side as a crackpot, someone to avoid trying to
accept and understand. I don't expect to get
answers for my needs on this list, but I do hope,
often in vain, for people who at least accept
where I'm coming from, even if they don't
understand it. I wish I didn't feel the need for
such support, but I'm human, and it's human to
want to be part of a community of people who
understand or at least accept each other.

What's really at fault with this whole picture is
not that I set as my goal achieving normalized BGs
- we all deserve that! What's at fault is I'm not
getting the medical support I need to achieve it.
What I deserve is the choice to go on insulin so
I can eat a few more carbs if I want, without
having to raise my A1C to 7 - which, let's
remember, represents an *average* BG of 172!!!!
I'm not likely to get that choice, so I continue
doing the best I can with the tools I have -
low-carb eating, exercise, and the hope that
stabilizing my BGs at near-normal levels will
eventually help improve my complications.

Again, I don't ask that anyone on this list or
anywhere else accept either my goals or my methods
of achieving them for their own. I only ask that
I be accepted as another traveler on the diabetes
path, doing the best I can just like everyone else.

Now wishing I hadn't given into my rant.... I'm SO
TIRED of being labeled extreme!!!

Holly in MI

1k.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Deb Billwiller" auroraws@yahoo.ca   auroraws

Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:56 am (PST)



At 01:39 PM 2009-12-31, you wrote:

>Now wishing I hadn't given into my rant.... I'm SO
>TIRED of being labeled extreme!!!

Sorry Holly, but you're extremely self-aware (I envy that!) and
extremely supportive of others and extremely focused on doing what
you need to do to achieve your goals and on top of all that, you're
an extremely nice person too.

so there.

Deb in BC

1l.

Re: rant about BG swings

Posted by: "Jude" peridotjude@yahoo.com   peridotjude

Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:22 am (PST)



--- In Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com, Deb Billwiller <auroraws@...> wrote: At 01:39 PM 2009-12-31, Holly wrote:>Now wishing I hadn't given into my rant.... I'm SO TIRED of being labeled extreme!!!>
<<Sorry Holly, but you're extremely self-aware (I envy that!) and extremely supportive of others and extremely focused on doing what you need to do to achieve your goals and on top of all that, you're an extremely nice person too.so there. Deb in BC>>

What she said *points at Deb*. I'm extremely glad you said that, Deb; I agree to an extreme extent! <G>
Judy D.

2a.

Re: foot drop

Posted by: "Diane Moro" deemoro@gmail.com   signoradiana

Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:01 am (PST)



You should google "foot drop" or ask your doc for a simple explanation, but
when I worked for orthopedists, it usually meant that someone had a
herniated disk. A laminectomy or some such back surgery usually helped. Or
not.

google is great.
~diane

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Tricia <psimmons1219@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was diagnosed with "foot drop" about 20 months ago. I started having
> trouble with the foot drop about 3 years ago. Does anyone have any
> information about this and what can be done to help it. I am in a wheel
> chair anytime I leave the house because I can not walk very far and it hurts
> so bad. I can grab things around the house to help me walk so I do not have
> to put as much weight on it.
>
> I can not figure out how I got it. In everything I have read you know what
> happened to you because it is either a pretty severe injury or diabetic
> neuropathy. I had a back problem (a spondylolisthesis) that I had surgery
> for. It was something I was born with or that happened while I was still a
> child. This is a back problem that can cause the foot drop problem. My
> surgery was in 1999 so it was fixed before I developed the problem. I was
> not diabetic until around a year ago so it could not be that either.
>
> I
2b.

blood glucose and surgery

Posted by: "Kim" hazel_eyes69@sbcglobal.net   hazel_eyes69@sbcglobal.net

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:06 am (PST)



I have a question for everyone:

Have any of you experienced higher than normal blood glucose levels after surgery? I had a uterine polyp removed yesterday morning, and saw my blood sugar rise steadily throughout the day. I am normally in the 110-120 range, but I went from 177 up to 363 - with no real change in my diet! I  called my doc and he said it was normal  and that it would come down in 24 hours, but to call if it got over 400. This seems like such a risk to me.
 
Kim
2c.

Re: blood glucose and surgery

Posted by: "Amal" amal_mba10@yahoo.com   amal_mba10

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:18 am (PST)





--- On Thu, 12/31/09, Kim <hazel_eyes69@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
 
Have any of you experienced higher than normal blood glucose levels after surgery? 
***************I experienced soaring blood sugar readings both prior and after a surgery last September. It is because of the body's response to illness and infection.  Give it some time and if it continues to creep up get in touch with the doctor as he rightly suggested.  Wishing you a quick recovery and Happy New Year from Bahrain!
Amal 

2d.

Re: foot drop

Posted by: "Terry Shimmins" xquid79@yahoo.com   xquid79

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:22 am (PST)



This past Monday's USA Today Life section (12-28-09) had a story of a Navy officer who received a specially-fitted brace for "foot drop" and is now running marathons.    There was a brief explanation of what it is and what causes it.

________________________________
From: Diane Moro <deemoro@gmail.com>
To: Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 6:01:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Type-2-Diabetes] foot drop

 
You should google "foot drop" or ask your doc for a simple explanation, but when I worked for orthopedists, it usually meant that someone had a herniated disk. A laminectomy or some such back surgery usually helped. Or not.

google is great.
~diane

I

2e.

Re: blood glucose and surgery

Posted by: "Jude" peridotjude@yahoo.com   peridotjude

Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:12 am (PST)



--- In Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com, Kim <hazel_eyes69@...> wrote:
Have any of you experienced higher than normal blood glucose levels after surgery? I had a uterine polyp removed yesterday morning, and saw my blood sugar rise steadily throughout the day. I am normally in the 110-120 range, but I went from 177 up to 363 - with no real change in my diet! I  called my doc and he said it was normal and that it would come down in 24 hours, but to call if it got over 400. This seems like such a risk to me. Kim>

The stress of surgery, plus having to fast for the procedure, as well as many times having your normal meds-taking schedule interfered with, can often result in dramatically higher numbers for a while. Usually, once you're home and back eating and taking any meds, etc, things will return to normal fairly quickly, especially if your post-op pain is well controlled. Just follow your doc's suggestions and keep him in the loop if your test results continue to rise.
Judy D.

3a.

Re: The "myth" of dangerous tight control

Posted by: "AnaLog Services, Inc." analog@logwell.com   sydlevine

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:13 am (PST)



Very well stated, Judy. If somebody can do what Holly does without insulin, that is great. With insulin, it is likely a disaster in the making. I might add that some of the oral antiglycemics could pose a danger similar to insulin (the sulfas maybe?).

Sustainability year after year is another issue altogether.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jude
To: Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:59 AM
Subject: [Type-2-Diabetes] The "myth" of dangerous tight control

--- In Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com, Holly Shaltz <holly@...> wrote: <snip> It seems to be quite a strong myth that tight BG control, with low BG goals, results in dangers of hypoglycemia and death>>

This is not a myth for those who take insulin; it's a fact of life. For those who use insulin for control, testing vigilance and adherence to a strict food plan and exercise routine is a must if they seek tight control, and they WILL experience lows.

IMO, a sustainable A1c down into the mid-4s, while not impossible to attain with insulin, might be (well, I hate to use the word "dangerous", but what word do I want here?) ill-advised? for most type 2s. Perhaps a pumper who is also connected to one of the new continuous glucose monitoring systems, someone who is very vigilant, would do okay, but for the ordinary, garden-variety type 2, a 4.5 A1c, sustained over months and years with insulin injections, well... that person *is* going to have to treat lows, maybe even daily, and there's no proof that that kind of tight control is necessarily a good thing, achieved at the expense of constantly dealing with lows and recovering (yuck!) from them.

Someone like yourself, Holly, who is achieving a mid-4s A1c with diet and exercise, there's no danger, AFAIK.

<<I don't think I've been lower than 65 since February>>

Yes, this is normal for you. In the absence of insulin therapy and hypoglycemic meds, this is what happens for most type 2s, with weight loss, strict low-carbing, and exercise.

Judy D.

4a.

Re: Can low blood sugar cause a person to have a seizure/black out?

Posted by: "AnaLog Services, Inc." analog@logwell.com   sydlevine

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:14 am (PST)



Extreme insulin sensitivity is by definition something that is not a factor for Type 2s. However, it is true that preoccupation with slight highs can be a danger to any diabetic if it results in too many lows, or extreme lows.

----- Original Message -----
From: jm04161955
To: Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 2:05 AM
Subject: [Type-2-Diabetes] Re: Can low blood sugar cause a person to have a seizure/black out?

--- In Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com, "RebeccaM" <pikachu1978rsm@...> wrote:
>
> I appreciate any feedback you all can give me on this thanks!

Hi Rebecca,

I can't speak from direct experience relative to epileptic seizures but I do have a very good friend who is both a long time Type 1 (he was diagnosed at age 21 and is in his mid-60s now) and an epileptic, and in his case, yes, he has had instances when he's seized due to a combination of low BG and a resultant epileptic seizure. I don't know if his seizures occur *because* he is epileptic, or if they would occur on their own as a natural result of low BG independent of the epilepsy. He is normally able to treat his lows fairly well and fairly quickly but he does have instances when there is a definite seizure result, and because of his epilepsy, it's not always easy to really narrow down what's happening with him.

That said, I have seized from low BG, and I'm NOT epileptic. One of my best friends is a hypersensitive T1, since her early 20s, and I KNOW she has seized -- and she's also experienced lows lower than 10 mg/dl and been semi-conscious at the time, albeit extremely compromised. One of the worst lows she ever experienced resulted in a seizure -- the first time that anyone can rememmber her seizing in the midst of a low -- and she has fallen unconscious from lows more times than she could EVER accurately count. Since she is SO sensitive, and such tiny amounts of insulin can have significant impact on her, I have been urging her for a LONG time to go through a short period where she's running a bit higher than normal for her, so t hat she might be able to regain some degree of her hypo awareness, but she is so terrified of highs (and has them plenty as a result of rebounding) that I believe she'll never really be able to sustain those temporarily elevated readings for a long enough time to decrease the danger that she is in every day of her life. I spoke to her last evening and she told me that over the last four weeks she has been consistently testing in the 40s, 50s and 60s -- an occasinal "over 100," but they're the exception. She's now 45 and has been living this way for almost 25 years. It terrifies me.

I witnessed the end of her seizure -- the first that she had; a friend who lives close found her in the midst of it and called me becuase he knows that I live with this reality as well and that I not only know her patterns, I know how her lows need to be treated, and how immediate the need is when she does drop dangerously low. We ALL know this, and we ALL know how to talk her through these lows, but when she was in the midst of that first seizure, there was nothing any of us could do but to call 911. She lives alone and doesn't keep glucagon on hand ("If I'm alone, what good is it going to do me? If I need glucagon, I'm not going to be in a position to give it to myself..."). Bottom line -- she is a mess right now. As for the rest of your subject line, yes, it is more than possible to "black out" from lows -- this has hapened to her countless times and has happened to me on occasion as well, though I'm not nearly as insulin-sensitive as she is and don't experience the same extremes tha she does on any regular sort of basis. I know why she's in the place she's in right now and unfortunately, she's not able to resolve it in the way that she needs to.

I hope I haven't scared you to death, Rebecca. Just writing this down and reading it back, seeing it typed out in front of me, is enough to scare the hell out of me. She's stubborn and tells me all the time that she wants to live a normal life and not be a slave to these lows, but right now, she just can't get there.

Holly, I do hope you're reading this and understand and respect that for some who want to keep their BGs as low as you seem to, it can be extremely dangerous. She works SO hard -- she tests countless times per day, and she knows and recognizes her own pattrerns and where she's going to be heading in an hour if she's at a certain place when she tests - but she can't fix it now. Her hands are tied, and the limitations she has had placed upon her insurance-wise are, I'm convinced, going to kill her.

JoAnne

4b.

Re: Can low blood sugar cause a person to have a seizure/black out?

Posted by: "Holly Shaltz" holly@shaltzfarm.com   hollyshaltz

Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:32 am (PST)



JoAnne writes:

<<Holly, I do hope you're reading this and
understand and respect that for some who want to
keep their BGs as low as you seem to, it can be
extremely dangerous. >>

The story you relate, JoAnne, is tragic, to say
the least. I hate to do arm-chair pop psychology,
but your friend sounds suicidal to me. At the
very least, based on your description of her
situation, she's not taking those precautions she
*can* take to decrease her extreme lows.

I would also have to wonder how many carbs she's
eating. The more carbs eaten, the more insulin an
insulin-dependent diabetic must shoot, and the
more likelihood something in the equation will go
wrong, resulting in highs and lows.

It also sounds like she might not be properly
trained on how to treat lows effectively, since
you say she has plenty of highs from rebounding.
Sounds like maybe either she's overtreating the
lows, or perhaps she's undertreating them, and her
liver is helping out by dumping glucose.

The best thing, IMO, to do for your friend is give
her a copy of Dr Bernstein's _Diabetes Solution_.
Yes, I know, everyone is rolling eyes at me now!
But it revolutionized how I dealt with diabetes,
making me feel better in every way and explaining
things that my "medical team" didn't bother to
explain. It can't hurt your friend, and it just
might save her life.

But please don't equate her situation to mine, or
that of others managing their BG in the
non-diabetic range. *I don't have lows unless I
ignore my body's need for glucose during
exercise.* Period. And even if I go low from
exercise, it's so mild as to not be a low by most
standards - 65, maybe.

Your assumption that all diabetics who manage
their BGs in the non-diabetic range are at danger
for serious lows is common, but totally unfounded.
Danger occurs when there's an imbalance between
carbs taken in and insulin, either injected or
artificially increased by drugs.

I don't know much about how to titer doses of
insulin, but I do understand it's based primarily
on calculating how many carbs are going to be
taken in, and timing the dose for the peak effect
of the insulin to hit as the carbs are being digested.

If you underestimate the carbs, and take too much
insulin, then the possibility of a dangerous low
exists. If you estimate the carbs correctly, but
underestimate how long they take to hit the blood
stream (perhaps because of gastroparesis, which
your friend may well have), then the insulin can
hit before the carbs do, and a dangerous low can
occur.

Likewise, with T2s who take drugs to stimulate the
pancreas to excrete more insulin, the timing of
the dose must be balanced with the carbs eaten, or
lows - albeit probably not nearly as dangerous as
the lows a diabetic can have from injected insulin
that's misgauged - can result. Hence the warnings
to eat regular, large amounts of carbs (and the
resultant difficulties with weight loss, thanks to
IR).

When carb intake is kept low, less insulin is
needed - injected or excreted - and there's far
less chance for any sort of low, let alone a
dangerous one. Bernstein's "law of small numbers"
- small inputs, small mistakes. He manages T1s on
insulin with A1Cs under 5 routinely, without
dangerous lows. Including himself.

Please, buy her his book. It might save her life.
Or she might refuse to read it - but it won't
hurt to try. What has she got to lose at this point?

Holly in MI

5.

On diabetic plants in India.

Posted by: "Sasirababu Krottapalli" sasirababuk@yahoo.com   sasirababuk

Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:15 am (PST)



Hai Hayes,                          " Happy New Year "
 
  Though I mean to write to you earlier, I could not do so for several reasons. I and my wife went for an annual medical check up and stayed there for a month with my son's family.We have just returned and trying to find out about gymnema sylvestre .Until you wrote about this herbal plant used in diabetic treatment I have no idea about it.. Since my return I contacted people who have knowledge on Indian medicinal plants.
 
   This g.s is a common woody climber growing wild in our near by shrub jungles. The leaves are dried and powered and packed for sale. Capsules are also packed with this powder.. My enquiry at the local Ayurvedic college , dispenseries and medical shops tells me that it is a popular herbal medicine used esp. in rural areas for diabetes Many diabetics depend only on this gs for sugar control. There are no side effects and this powder can safely be used along with other medicines.                                                                                   Sasira babu K
                                                  

6a.

Statin Drugs

Posted by: "Barb T" barb1024@yahoo.com   barb1024

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:07 am (PST)




Syd said "I refuse to take the statins, and my diagnosis is very similar to yours, The blunt reality is that high cholesterol is the least of our worries, and risking the side effects of the statins is a bad gamble as far as I am concerned."
 
His reasons for not taking statins are many, but for many others, their doctors have not told them that statin drugs deplete CoQ10 - a necessary nutrient that feeds the cells for energy. I disovered this by reading a lot of different publications, but here's a reference for you.
 
http://tiny.cc/S7BJX
 
I'm fortunate because we sell a COQ10 product, which I can get for distributor cost. There are cheaper ones out there at drugstores, however I can't vouch for their effectiveness. It has helped me have more energy.
 
 

6b.

Re: Statin Drugs

Posted by: "Amal" amal_mba10@yahoo.com   amal_mba10

Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:32 am (PST)





--- On Thu, 12/31/09, Barb T <barb1024@yahoo.com> wrote:
Syd said "I refuse to take the statins, and my diagnosis is very similar to yours, The blunt reality is that high cholesterol is the least of our worries, and risking the side effects of the statins is a bad gamble as far as I am concerned."
******************I also refused to take statins.  I am not trying to discourage others from using these drugs.  This is my choice only based on my own preference.
 This issue was discussed at length with my endo but he was not able to convince me to take them.  Those on statins have to take COQ1o as the drugs deplete the body of this vital nutrient.   Others may think I am foolish not to take statins being border line high but to me it is better to get a heart attack and die than see my hair falling off like one of my friends (i.e, if high cholesterol is the culprit in the first place!).  My quality of life is more important than anything else.  But that is just me!! 
Amal 

 

7a.

Re: Glipizide, Statins and Congestive Heart Failure

Posted by: "ron42nm" ron42nm@gmail.com   ron42nm

Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:37 am (PST)



This is incorrect. The information sheets do not say that.

The weight of the evidence is that statins, in fact, are beneficial in congestive heart failure.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/296/17/2105

Glipizide is safe for those with congestive heart failure. The warning that comes with all sulfonylureas is that a moderate sized study of tolbutamide showed an increase in cardiac mortality. It is assumed from this that all sulfonylureas may get the same results. This was due to heart attacks, not congestive heart failure.

Ron

--- In Type-2-Diabetes@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
> >
> The two drugs I am most concerned about are the statins for high cholesterol....but,
> they are supposed to be "beneficial" to those with certain heart conditions.  The
> other drug is Glipizide.......the information sheets that come with my Rx clearly
> states that these drugs should not be taken by anyone with congestive heart failure.
>

8a.

Re: seeing an endo

Posted by: "Debbie Drechsler" deb@debdrex.com   debsudrex

Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:04 pm (PST)



> No, really? :) I don't expect anyone to be
> enthusiastic over it - most people don't need to
> do what I do to achieve their goals.

Hi Holly,

I also keep tight control of my BG and recently went out to meet new
endos since the one I've had was unbelievably bad and that was just
for thyroid cancer! I wanted to see if I could find someone to work
with both thyroid and diabetes. I found two likely candidates to start
with. The first one was dismissive of my desire to keep my glucose
level under 115 (which is wildly hedonistic by your standards:^D). He
said I was trying too hard and should lighten up. He also thought that
my concern with post-prandial numbers was misguided. He said the AIc
was all that I needed to worry about. When I pointed out that the A1c
was an average and that my low fasting numbers would balance out any
high post-prandials, he seemed unable to comprehend my point.

The next one, 50 miles away, was much better, and will be my next
endo. She took my concerns seriously and respectfully, but basically
said the same thing as the first endo, albeit in a more kindly and
respectful way. She said there was no reason why I couldn't let my
glucose go up to 140 PP. When I pointed out the 20% error rate on
meters and that I wanted to stay low to make sure I really was staying
low, she said that the meter could also err on the low side so I might
as well just aim for 140 because it might be lower!? Well, okay,
except if it's lower (in my case) that's not going to lead to
complications or the illness associated with hypo lows. Geez!

In my very limited experience it seems that the general approach by
doctors is to think diabetes isn't an illness until your numbers say
it is, and that they're kind of flummoxed by people who want to (and
are able to) control their numbers with diet and lifestyle, especially
if we aren't in the "real" diabetic category. And they seem to have
little concept of the idea that we might actually want to avoid
getting to the diagnosis of diabetes, if at all possible.

I decided that the distant endo seems like she'll be very good with
they thyroid cancer and respectful of my approach to diabetes, if not
enthusiastic. I can live with that and hope to be able to work with
her for a good long time.

I sure hope you can find an endo to learn with but, where I live, it's
all you can do to get a doctor to pay attention to the simplest issues
and stay on point to treat them. I can't even imagine trying to work
with one that way. But health care in my county seems to be even worse
than elsewhere, so I'll hold good thoughts for you.

Debbie in Santa Rosa

Recent Activity
Visit Your Group
Celebrity kids

and families

Surviving in

the spotlight

Yahoo! Groups

Going Green

Resources and tips

for green living

Yahoo! Groups

Auto Enthusiast Zone

Auto Enthusiast Zone

Car groups and more!

Need to Reply?

Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.

Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
*** All information discussed on this list is not to be taken as medical advice but the experience of each member based on discussions with their doctors. ***

*** Please always consult with your doctor about what treatment options are best for your situation. ***